Hydrogen Generator!

[SVOboy]

Check it out, it seems to be interesting:

<a href=http://h2gen.info/ target=_blank>Homemade Hydrogen Generator</a>
<a href=http://www.savefuel.ca/ target=_blank>Buy one</a>

So, I know there is a thing about humifying, but I think it is worth talking about the way that the first is made and how much would that really cost compared to the second, if you get my drift. I dunno, it's a confusing thing to me, I dunno, I'd love to make one though.

[Flatland2D]

I'm in the process of researching these things. Despite the small amount of gas produced, many people have noted large increases in efficiency. 50 to 100% increases are talked about on the websites that sell these.

I'm specifically researching electrode materials, electrode shape and orientation, eletrolytes, and pulsing current instead of continuous flow. Once I get as complete of an understanding I can get of all these things I will create my own design and test its performance.

This sounds like one of the most promising mpg boosting ideas. I'm looking forward to this one.

[diamondlarry]

I wanted to make a comment on the Hydro-Gen in your link. I purchased one of these early this spring. Due to some problems I was having with my car I was not able to accurately document a mileage increase but it did seem to help some. I only used it for a short time because the electrodes eroded away to nothing. They were supposed to be high grade stainless steel. I used baking soda for the electrolyte and ran at 10-20 amps and they still eroded. They were a threaded rod that I believe may have only been zinc coated and not actually stainless steel. Otherwise, baking soda would not have eaten them up.

[SVOboy]

I think that the kit thingy is kinda a rip considering flatland's thing about how much mpg savers are costing us know-nothings. However, I do heartily look forward to hearing what he has learned about it, cuz yeah, I'm physched, he's a smart one...I'm about to email my physics teacher to bring me his copy of flatland on monday. Well, he's teaching me mutlivariable calc now, but he'll always be an ap physics teacher in my heart.

[Flatland2D]

Well I'm conducting some experiments right now. I'm testing different shapes of electrodes. So far, parallel plates seem to produce the most bubbles. I've tried rods and wire mesh, and I have some ideas I haven't tested yet. Hydrogen production increases as the electrodes get closer. It's very noticable at about a 0.25" gap. This is simply because the system draws much more current. Breaking down water is based soley on the number of electrons passing through the water. More electrons equals more current by definition. Voltage should play no part in production and that is the first thing that is different with what I'm doing. All the hydro-boost units I've heard of run on 12VDC. I don't see any reason why you couldn't run it on 5V or even 3V. That would cut power consumed by the unit by 75%. I think that's a good thing because some people have noticed their electrolysis system getting very hot. Heat may actually be a good thing in breaking down hydrogen, but that's another test. I don't have an ammeter here to measure how much current I'm drawing. I may have to borrow one from work when I come up with a good design. What would you guys say would be an acceptable load for a hydrogen boost unit to consume? 20 amps sounds like a lot, and I know some of the commercial units consume that much. The idea is to not consume power so fast that the alternator can't recharge the battery, too. How many amps can a typical alternator put out anyway?

I stopped by a science supply store today and found out I can buy sulfuric acid there. That has been said to be the best electrolyte by far, but it's also the most corrosive. Salt has been the best one I've used so far and might have some benefits over acids/bases. Salt will still corrode electrodes, but I'm guessing it's not nearly as bad as a strong acid or base will. So now it's just a matter of finding out what electrodes will not rust.

I'm glad you're going to read the book. I have to admit, the first half is sometimes a little boring. It's not till the second half that Mr. Square gets visited. But you have to know everything from the first have to really understand it all and his perspective. It's a short book though and shouldn't take long to read. It was my AP chemistry teacher that got me interested in the book.

[SVOboy]

Yeah, so I looked up some basic alternator crap and it seems like 75 is a good oem number, I also heard 25% of battery capacity but I'll be damned if I know my battery capacity (I'd rather figure out why my brakes quit today). However, if it seems advantageous to such a degree that lots of amps are necessary you can get yourself a high output alternator that will shoot out 150 amps, but the cost seems steep. I dunno.

[dfoxengr]

tungsten should be a good electrode.
it is usually seen being used as an elcetrode for welding.


does the process of electrolysis for H+ production go something like this? i assume its something like current between the two electrodes in a water/baking soda(electrolyte) mixture produces bubbles which are pure H+?

[Flatland2D]

Tungsten might work well but it's expensive. I just looked up the price for a 1/4" tungsten rod 8" long and it is $50. If it never wore away, it might be worthwhile, but you have to consider you'll have to save $50 in gas just to break in even. I'm really hoping the super high grade steel will work well. I will go to a place that sells metal working supplies to pick some up in the next few days. The guy next to the shop I work at is a welder, so he might be able to hook me up.

You pretty much have the right idea for electrolysis. You don't even need an electrolyte, but it makes a huge difference. Hydrogen is created at the cathode and oxygen at the anode. I believe they immediately form into their diatomic gasses. The nice thing about this process is that you're also making oxygen which is good for combustion, however you produce twice as much hydrogen as oxygen.

[dfoxengr]

so you can run electricity through the water and produce H without anything else added right?
have you thought about copper as the terminals?
they probably corrode though huh.

do the added chemicals make better reactions then?

but twice as much H+ isnt a bad thing.
ive heard of people needing to separate the H and O? why is that. should you just plumb the line into the intake and use both gases as fuel?

are you using mcmaster to check the price?
i love that site.

[Flatland2D]

Yes, you don't need to add anything to water to produce hydrogen, but it will make a big difference if you do. Salt dissociates into Na+ and Cl- in water and allows for easier flow of electrons. All the electrolytes work the same way.

Copper corrodes pretty bad.

It is suggested that you keep the H2 and O2 separate because igniting H2 by itself will be a much less violent explosion than an H2-O2 mixture. The difference is quite significant. The thinking is that a back-fire could possibly ignite the mixed gasses and possibly blow up your engine. I'm not sure how I'm going to set mine up. I'd like to design it for separate H2 and O2 gasses, but that complicates the design a little.

Speaking of back-fires, what conditions would cause it to happen? I would not worry too much about it on my car, but I just want to make sure.

Yes, I checked the prices on McMaster. That site is an engineer's wet dream.

[dfoxengr]

lol i get tons of stuff from there. i wouldnt worry about it "blowing up" but it could cause a fire. i would suggest making a very good outter container to contain blasts if possible. it is very unlikely that a flame will come back out through the intake valves anyways. especially on a stock cammed motor...

[SVOboy]

Can anyone put up some good electrolysis theory background stuff for those of us who have only done one chemistry course? Thanks in advance.

[Flatland2D]

Last night I produced hydrogen substantially faster than I had ever done before. The secret was boiling the water. I've heard this theory discussed before but I haven't seen anyone implement in their hydrogen generator. I couldn't believe my eyes when I put the electrodes in. The surface of the water/salt mixture was convex from the large amount of bubbles rising to the surface. The electrolyte was continually being mixed by the convection caused by the bubbles.

The idea behind boiling the water is to give the water molecules an energy boost so it takes less electricity to supply the remainding energy to break the molecule apart.

The cathode (the electrode producing the H2) was eroding much faster than the anode. Maybe it is only necessary to have one electrode with high corrosion resistence and the other is less important. I had not seen my electrodes erode so fast before.

I tried a two cell generator in series to keep the current the same but divide the voltage across each cell. Unfortunately my idea about voltage being independent of H2 production was wrong. There are many more bubbles at full voltage than at half voltage. I will probably rig up a better test device to confirm this. I'm still using drinking glasses and coat hangers for electrodes. Even though two cells at half voltage are producing less bubbles per cell, they still might be producing more bubbles together than one cell at full voltage. I would consider up to four cells in my generator. There might be a current/voltage trade-off.

I still haven't gone up to sulfuric acid as an electrode, which is supposed to be much better than salt. Electrode erosion will probably happen much faster, but I will try to make it to the metal supplies store soon to by the highest grade steel I can find and samples of other corrosion resistent metals.

So now I've been thinking about how to heat up my generator in the car. I am thinking about using a water jacket like in the picture I made below. It consists of one container inside another with engine coolant (green) heating up the inner container.

<img src="http://www.morlinos.com/delsol/waterjacket.GIF">

My only reservation about this is that I don't want to mess with the coolant system too much. Any mistakes on my part could permanently damage my engine. The coolant hoses are too wide to simply put a T fitting on. I would want to avoid drilling and tapping my radiator. I could always use an electric heater, but they consume lots of energy, especially to get up to boiling point. I wouldn't want to strain the alternator too much. There's too much heat under the hood to let it all go to waste. Anyone have some ideas on how I might heat this thing up? I've heard someone give the idea of wrapping small diameter copper tubing about an exhaust header which might work, but might also require a pump. The heated fluid might pump itself, like how a heat pump works. I don't know.

Any ideas? Comments?

[SVOboy]

I dun see why rerouting the coolant is such a big deal. In my experience with WVO the main thing is rerouting the coolant so that is goes all the way to the back of the car and hangs around in the second tank to heat up the oil. I've never seen anyone have a problem with something like that or talk about that having a potential for problems.

[Flatland2D]

Sounds good. Let me go outside and see if there's anywhere I can easily tap off the coolant.

[SVOboy]

It should be basically anywhere on the old flexy lines. I dunno how you'll do it with all the coolant running through or some or what? Might consider some vavles and blah blah blah for testing and easy isolation and blah, mehbe, I dunno.

[Matt Timion]

First of all, I have a question, and then I have an idea as to how you can reroute your coolant.

Why not just produce the hydrogen at home and somehow get it into a kerosine tank? you can then replace electrodes when you need to. it is also much easier to boil water on a gas stove, and much cheaper too.

Okay, back to an idea.

At the bottom of the radiator and at the bottom of the engine block there should be a coolant drain. It's usually a small threaded bolt that when you unscrew it all of the coolant comes out.

Why not get a hose with a threaded end and just attach it to the drain? Obviously this idea needs some work, but it would be very easy to tap into that hole. No drilling needed.

[Flatland2D]

I think it would be difficult to store the amount of hydrogen required because it would have to be pressurized to get it small enough to carry in a car. I believe the hydrogen storage tanks used on fuel cell cars are pressurized to 5000 psi. Electrolysis will only pressurize the produced gasses to a small fraction of that. It is a promising idea though and it is the way fuel cell cars are working already. The only problem is that you can't buy hydrogen at gas stations yet. At home you could at least be producing 24 hours a day with almost no current limitations, but storage at high pressure is a problem for an amateur.

Just connecting to the drain cock would not allow a return path for the coolant to flow through. It would have to be cycled back to the radiator somehow.
EDIT: Just realized you said there is a drain at the bottom of the engine block, too. That would be enough to provide a pathway through the device.

I got that part figured out now. Upon inspection, I saw there is a 1/4" hose that tee's off of the main coolant hose and takes it to the throttle body. After a little research, disconnecting the coolant to the throttle body is a widely done modification. It is only used to keep the throttle body from freezing in extremely cold climates and has the adverse effect of heating the incoming air once the engine gets warm. I don't think I'll have the freezing problem down here in Texas, but even people in freezing climates said the mod hasn't caused any problems. I plan to carry coolant to my generator by either putting it inline with the coolant going to the throttle body, or disconnecting the coolant to the throttle body and using is exclusively for my generator.

[Matt Timion]

I always thought that warm air was GOOD for gas mileage. wouldn't a coolant hose connected to the TB effectively heat the incoming air, thus helping increase mileage?

i've heard so much about warm air versus cold air, that I really don't know any more which is best for gas mileage.

[SVOboy]

I think the warm air is better as it gives you less air actually around, and the hybrid people is where that idea is coming from and they test things really meticulously, but the CAI people are all just performance people who don't really care that much (from my experience). However, I am thinking the coolant to the intake is meant to thin out the gas, especially in cold weather, so that it sprays finer through the injectors.

[Flatland2D]

I have decided it would be best to put the generator inline with the throttle body coolant. If there are any mpg gains/losses with cold/warm air, that would mess up the results of my hydrogen generator. Future tests could indicate which is better. I personally don't think it'll matter. The intake manifold area is already smoking hot from the engine, I don't think it'll make a difference either way.

[Matt Timion]

I was thinking about this more tonight, and I think you're right. There is so much ambient heat in the engine bay that I'm sure it won't matter a bit. This is probably the exact same reason removing the coolant line to the TB has little or no effect.

I'm personally very excited about what you're doing.

I can't remember if I read it here or not, but are you planning on seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen? If so, how are you going to do this?

[Flatland2D]

I would like to keep the gasses separated, but I don't know that it's necessary. I was planning on having the H2 go to the intake on the same vacuum line as the PCV valve and the O2 going to a hose barb I already have on my intake tube. The only reason to do this is you should have a less violent explosion if just the H2 is combusting. I don't think that is much of a possibility though.

H2 comes off the cathode (negative) and O2 off the anode (positive). I believe this is only true for the electrolysis of pure water though. I was reading somewhere about using salt as the electrolyte and the resulting gasses were H2 and Cl2. I verified this in my experiments. I was definitely producing Cl2 (chlorine or mustard gas) because the smell is very distinct. In this case it would be nice to discard the unused gas somewhere else. I need to figure out what I'll produce with sulfuric acid just to be sure.

Hopefully this weekend I'll make some test cells so I can accurately measure the volume of gas produced. I saw a really old ammeter at work last night that is capable of measuring up to 50A or something like that. I will borrow it for these tests.

[dfoxengr]

cool work. keep it updated. and yes the TB coolant line is what i was going to suggest also.

[Flatland2D]

I tried baking soda as an electrolye last night. Near boiling point it was much more impressive than salt which produces better results at room temperature. There is an important difference in these two solutions. Salt is producing hydrogen and chlorine gas, the latter is not useful at all. Baking soda is producing hydrogen and oxygen, both very useful during combustion. Also, the rate of production at the anode is much higher with baking soda. Salt just barely produces chlorine gas, but baking soda produces oxygen almost as fast as hydrogen (stoic. it's 2:1 though). This is a very good thing.

Most of the hydrogen generators for sale seem to recommend basic (as in not acidic) electrolytes. They are also the ones claiming to be all or nearly maintenance free. I wonder if they are less corrosive. In the little time I experimented last night I didn't notice any build up. They looked cleaner than usual. I'll try a prolonged test in the coming days to verify this. I'd also like to try a much stronger base such as lye.

I was drawing about 7 to 8 amps from my generator. I'm trying to keep my max current around 15 to 20 amps. I could put another cell in parallel and be generating twice as much H2/O2 and still be within my limits.

[Diemaster]

why not make the heater in paralell or even relace the heater inthe car. that would produce plenty of heat. or if coolent is a problem u could use oil. just remimber that your containor must withstand 20 psi on collent or ~60 w/ oil.

[Flatland2D]

Putting a heater in parallel (I'm assuming you mean electrical) would be drawing unnecessary current. There's way too much heat being generated under the hood to make use of that the idea of adding another heater seems inefficient.

I'd rather not take away the car's heater just for this application. It is handy to have for the few weeks each year it gets cold.

Withstanding pressure won't be a problem at 20psi.

[Diemaster]

no put your new heater in paralell the the heater in the car ussing the coolent lines. dont go electrical. just T off the heater hoses.

[dfoxengr]

gotten any metals not to corrode as the nodes?

[Flatland2D]

Well tomorrow I'll <i>finally</i> be going to the metal supplies store to pick up some high grade stainless steel and anything else I can find that might work. Hopefully I can do some extended tests with the new materials.

I set up a test rig for determining if two cells in series are better than one. I'm trying to keep as many things constant as possible. I'll post pictures of what I'm doing after the test, which will hopefully be tomorrow also.