gasoline and veggie oil, to much time to think.

[Ryland]

I had a long drive today, so I had time to think about things, and I came up with a baffling question, it was based off the idea of running straight vegitable oil in a diesel, in the winter some people add up to 20% gasoline to the oil to make it thiner, would you be able to do basicly the oposite with gasoline? add lets say up to 10 or 20% oil to your gasoline to rase the octane? vegitable oil is going to burn more compleatly then motor oil, and it's going to be a small enough amount that I would think it would mix right in, and not cause any problems...
am I compleatly off on my logic here?

[SVOboy]

You're off. They add 20% or so of diesel, not gas.

It'd be like adding diesel fuel to a gas car or ethanol to a SVO car.

[Ryland]

I'll check again, but I'm pretty sure that the VW diesel rabbit owners manual says something about if winter diesel is not avalible, or you are having problems with gelling in extreamly cold weather that you could add 10-20% gasoline, they of course no longer advise people do this as the quality of diesel is suposidly improved, altho I do know of a number of people with diesel cars that are running straight unheated oil, mixed with gasoline, all I found with google was this off http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html


Biodiesel in gasoline engines

Biodiesel can also be used in gasoline (spark-ignition) engines, but only as an additive. People have had good results with it, but it's still experimental, there are no guarantees.

Biodiesel in 2-stroke gasoline engines: Many people have used biodiesel as replacement 2T lube oil in two-stroke gasoline (petrol) engines. Biofuel mailing list member Martin R. of Australia uses it in his chain saw, at a mix of 1 to 20 with gasoline. "It works fine," he says. "After using the saw for 2.5 hours in one go on dead Australian hardwood with no hiccups I was very impressed to say the least."


Franklin Del Rosario wrote:
I'm please to inform our group about using a biodiesel blend with gasoline fuel to power a 4-stroke gasoline engine. The company I work with has a fleet of service cars, most of them are Japanese Nissan, Toyota and Honda. I persuaded one of our company drivers to try biodiesel in a gasoline engine at 200-300 ml of biodiesel to 50 litres of gasoline mixed together in the fuel tank.

We choose a Nissan Cefiro because it emitted a foul odor of unburned hydrocarbons irritating to the eyes and nose during engine warm up and idling. I poured 200 ml of biodiesel into the tank, shook the body for a while and started the engine. After 5 to 7 minutes of idling speed, the exhaust odor improved dramatically and at the end of the day of driving the odor of unburned hydrocarbon was gone and engine purred better than before because biodiesel lubricates the fuel system, the upper combustion chamber, as well as the valve ports. Because of this other drivers tried it in Honda cars. The immediate result was no more odor of unburned hydrocarbons and visible trace of water condensation at the exhaust tail pipe as if the car was new.

I tried using biodiesel as an anti-wear additive for a four-stroke gasoline motorcycle engine and the result was the same."

[psyshack]

I dont see this truley working in a gas only engine.

If the cats where in good working order and the emmission system was in good working order they shouldnt have stunk to start with.

Standard gas engines dont have the compression to ignite oils so to speak. Other so called top end lubes Ive seen have never proved out to be worth the bottle there packaged in.

I dont no why a natural oil additive would be any diff.

Will be intresting to see where this leads.

psy

[SVOboy]

Hmm, that's very interesting that they'd use gas, you have me stumped there, but like psy, I have a feeling that it won't work the other way around.

[Ryland]

I was given a quart of bio-diesel (pure b-100 made from recycled veggie oil) this past weekend at a music festival under the condition that I try this crazy idea, at first I was going to rip down a two stroke engine to see what kind of shape it was in befor, then run it for a while, and tear it down again, but I got impateint, so I simply did a mix, I took a standerd 50:1 two stroke weed wacker gas premix, and dumped in 10% bio-diesel, I started out with a new spark plug this fall, and it looks like the engine has been running near perfectly, no oil fouling, no soot, not running to lean, and the engine doesn't smoke much, and the muffler is reasonably free from oil residue, after about half an hour or more of running with 10% bio-diesel in the tank I checked the spark plug and it looked exactly the same, the exaust didn't show any signs of unburnt oil, and you could smell a slight bit of burning veggie oil/bio-diesel in the exaust, so it seemed to be working perfectly! it idles smooth, seems to have full power, and the bio-diesel seems to be burning like it should, the only thing I am unsure of is after letting it cool, I restarted it and it wouldn't rev up fully, as if the bio-diesel was taking a bit longer to ignite and burn, preventing high reving, it idled smoothly and started the same as with regular two stroke gas mix, it just took 20 seconds or so to warm up, tomarrow I'm going to try starting it again and see if this continues.
I am trying this with the 2 stroke oil in the fuel as well to prevent the engine from being damaged as the first of my goals is to find out if a low percentage of bio-diesel will burn in a gas engine, and it seems to, so I have about 5% in my motorcycle right now, and am going to continue testing, I haven't noticed any differnce at all yet with the motorcycle, so I might bump it up to 10% on the motorcycle as well and see what happens, then braze on a nut for an o2 sensor and see if burning 10% bio-diesel damages an o2 sensor.
Mostly I want to find out if it will damage a 2 stroke engine of used as a lube, and if I can get away with running 10% a 10:1 mix of pure gasolineure bio-diesel in a two stroke without any traditional two stroke oil and not damage the engine then I'll be really happy

[Ryland]

I just came inside from running test mixes of gasoline/bio-diesel mixes thru my (4 stroke) Honda cb125 motorcycle, I don't have mpg tests done yet, as I wanted to find out how much bio-diesel I could use befor it I started to have problems, I started out with a 1:1 mix (half 92 octane gasoline, half B-100 bio-diesel) that i was useing as a test for fuel lines, and carburator gaskets to see how they reacted, after starting it on pure gasoline it sputtered out on the 50/50 mix unless I had it choked, so I quickly ran thru 6 ounces of that mix choked the whole time, it would sort of idle, it would sputter and pop in the mid range, and because of the choke it wouldn't rev smoothly past 6,000rpm (9,500 rpm red line) altho it did not foul the plug, it did smoke a bit of white-ish smoke.
Next I tried a 2:1 mix, with that mix I didn't need to use the choke other then to start it, and while letting it idle, it would for the most part rev up to 8 or 9K rpm, but it poped and sputtered alot, and after running thru that 6 ounces of mix I found the plug to have a bit of oil on it, no signs of oil fouling, just traces of un burnt oil on the cooler parts of the plug, altho for the most part it looked like it was burning 80-90% of the bio-diesel.
Next was a 3:1 mix, things improved, if I adjusted the idle up it would sort of idle for a few seconds befor dieing, I still had to use the choke for starting, the poping and missing still happened every few seconds or so, but mostly at higher reves, or while reving it, plug still has traces of unburnt bio-diesel, but over all it's looking good, no traces of oil at the exaust tip, very small amount of white smoke.
At 4:1 it will Idle fine with the idle adjusted higher, normal is about 1,200rpm, with this mix it's needing to idle around 2,000rpm, still signs of unburnt fuels on the plug, minumal signs of smokeing, altho the sweet smell of burning oil is still there.
At 5:1 I desided it was running smooth enough and with little enough unburnt bio-diesel on the plug that I would check the power output, with a 12hp 125cc four stroke engine this part is easy, go for a ride on a road that I've ridden it wide open befor, 9,500rpm red line, 60mph top speed, with a tail wind I can sneek it past red line to 10,000rpm down a slight hill, but for the most part 9,500rpm is it's peek, and it did it without much sputtering or poping, no visable smoking, no plug fouling, no signs of running lean, as best as I can tell from the power output of the engine, the look of the spark plug, and the look/smell of the exaust, nearly all the bio-diesel is being burnt.

The plan for latter on this week is to tear down the weed wacker and take photos of the cylender/rings, mesure the slop in the bearings, and put the thing back together, then try a 5:1 mix, and a 10:1 mix, right now the weed wacker has a 10:1 mix with some extra 2 stroke lub in it, the idea being to do away with 2 stroke lub, and just use a lubricating fuel that burns clean.
Then weld on an o2 sensor to the motorcycle, and find out how the fuel air mix is, and how it changes with these fuel, and out an o2 sensor is affected by burning bio-diesel (I have a used single wire sensor that works) if those tests pan out, the next step is to try it in my civic vx and check gas mileage.

[SVOboy]

Sweet! This is really interesting. Have you ever thought about brewing your own ethanol?

[Ryland]

I thought about it, and we have an entire half shelf of books on home made alcohol fuels, but I wouldn't use corn, I would be more likely to use something like potatos, or jeruselm artachoks, or saw dust, or fruit alcohol, something that isn't going to destroy the soil, corn alows for to much soil errosion, I just can't do it.
I like the idea of an oil fuel more, but as I'm learning, it's hard to burn straight oil in a gasoline engine, altho tho something between my 5:1 mix, and my 10:1 mix seem like a nice middle ground, I meen the whole idea of taking seeds, crushing them, and squizing the oil out of them seems like a great idea! then if you want to ferment the left overs, or use it as feed, or whatever.
I also want to find out tho, how the bio-diesel will work as a top end lube, and as a replacment for 2 stroke lube, the idea of useing a chainsaw, or a moped, or weed wacker and not breathing unburnt petrolum oil.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

If paraffin wax will disolve in gas, it should have the same, or better effects on the engine in terms of lubricity. If viscosity is not an issue, you can easily use filtered vegetable oil in the place of dino oil, no need to refine it if you don't have to.

[SD26]

Ok, old thread, but what were the final results?

Certainly, this is interesting to me as I put some gas and vegetable oil in my diesel engine.

[SD26]

And further thought.

Work is completed through power. We can measure power output through BTU's. Ok, some engineers will probably slam me, so help me out.

Fuel products have BTU's that they produce.

Based on these energy equivilants, one can go through BTU's that each produces.

I've never been a great fan of alcohol based fuels because they simply require more to do the same amount of work, product the same number of BTU's.

If biodiesel, diesel, or even an amount of vegetable oil could replace a small portion of the gasoline mix, there might be a net benefit in power production.

[ZugyNA]

Some people are testing VEGETABLE OIL: at 8 to 16 oz per 10 gallons gasoline.

Biodiesel would be better.

www.oilcrusher.5u.com

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1734.0

...

While testing my fuel, and its results with diesels, my wife drives a little Jeep suv. 4.0L gas burner.. Over the last several years knowing that she wanted in on the farm raised fuel also we started to play with adding my sf oil to her jeep on fillups.

Well, it helps.. A fuel chemist fellow that works at a big refinery in Ponca City Ok. I got to know over the last few years told me that when they make fuel they crack all the polymers out as they sell them to other petrol chem. needs for more than what its worth leaving it in the fuel,, ( gas and diesel) He said that they were a very important place holder in the fuels atom chain. With out them all the fuel atoms are just bunched together. SO the fuel we get now is not as good as it was 20 years ago.. We all know this fact!

Back to the Jeep.. I have ran it with no problems up to 1/2 gas,, 1/2 oil. NO smoke, no knock,, and about 20% less power. But it did run.. Running a gallon to a tank, ((1 gallon to 19 gallons gas)) showed a constant gain in fuel mileage. From 18mpg to 21 mpg. (+17% gain) But with more testing, just 1 qt to a tank gave the same results. Just needed to supply the missing polymers. The added upper cyl lube does not hurt anything either ! Along with the fuel pump.

This is a homemade biodiesel blend...not veggie oil.

Adding polymers similar to using PIB?

...

[SD26]

I don't think that was a bio diesel blend, just sunflower oil.

What's the acronym for PIB?

[SD26]

Originally Posted by theclencher

The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm. A review of the list shows that the majority did not work, and for those that showed some effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.

© Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved

That link was bad on my end.

I found an EPA link, but there was no discussion of using vegetable oil as an additive. Yeah, yeah, they say don't use diesel, etc., but I want to see data rather than just be "told".

Gas has 10% corn in it as it is, and I would never think about doing that. I certainly don't think it helps mileage.

[ZugyNA]

Originally Posted by SD26

I don't think that was a bio diesel blend, just sunflower oil.

What's the acronym for PIB?

The order in which I'd try this would be:


* this guy's home produced oil

www.oilcrusher.5u.com


* B100 diesel

"We choose a Nissan Cefiro because it emitted a foul odor of unburned hydrocarbons irritating to the eyes and nose during engine warm up and idling. I poured 200 ml of biodiesel into the tank, shook the body for a while and started the engine. After 5 to 7 minutes of idling speed, the exhaust odor improved dramatically and at the end of the day of driving the odor of unburned hydrocarbon was gone and engine purred better than before because biodiesel lubricates the fuel system, the upper combustion chamber, as well as the valve ports."


* vegetable oil from the grocery

"...you can use soy in a gasoline engine currently i'm running a 12% soy blend in my ford 300. only negative effects are the smell of burnt french fries and the occasional dieseling when shut off."

The last one is well refined but not for fuel use. Any of these COULD cause carbon buildup and/or stuck rings ...pinging...and who knows what else.

But 8 oz per 10 G is only .62% rather than 12%.


PIB = polyisobutylene

http://www.google.com/patents?id=IDQ...BAJ&dq=5906665

"0.953 grams of the powder in Example 14 were added to 5.319 grams of absolute methanol to make slurry wetted with non-solvent. 87 grams of Exxon 100 Base Neutral Oil were added to the slurry and the mixture was stirred at 260 rpm for 4.5 hours. The resulting solution was very homogenous and very viscoelastic. The concentration of PIB was 0.532% by weight, with 799 ppm of magnesium stearate and 31 ppm of polyethylene wax.

This solution was used in tests of a 1987 Nissan 300 ZX and a 1983 Nissan 280 ZX. The tests on these two vehicles were conducted over essentially the same driving circuit from Apr. 7, 1995 to May 2, 1995.

Both vehicles showed increased miles per gallon (mpg) and increased performance, especially improved acceleration from a stop. The vehicles showed increased mpg (over 10%) in the PIB concentration range (in the gasoline) from 0.4 ppm to 16.43 ppm.

The highest percent mpg increase was 25 for the 280 ZX and 22.5 for the 300 ZX.

Of 12 separate tests on both vehicles the treated fuel always provided more mpg over the untreated fuel without exception."

[SD26]

Originally Posted by ZugyNA

The order in which I'd try this would be:

* this guy's home produced oil
www.oilcrusher.5u.com

Nothing special. His own grown and pressed sunflower oil. No methanol used to treat the oil to remove glycerin.

[ZugyNA]

Originally Posted by theclencher

General Motors Corporation.

Some expect GM to file bankruptcy eventually. Probably due to being unwilling to innovate and due to being protected by congress? Beats me. I drive Japanese.

[SD26]

Well, bloated health and retirement options too.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07333/837618-185.stm
"For years, Japanese carmakers have had an advantage in the "cost-per-car" competition. Because of so-called "legacy costs" for retiree pensions and health care, at one point American cars and trucks cost as much as $4,000 more per vehicle to build at General Motors for instance, than at Toyota."


And what is a "Japanese" car?
"With 63 percent of the Japanese vehicles sold in the United States in 2006 being built in American factories, the number of vehicles imported from Japan has dropped from 3.4 million in 1986 to fewer than 2.3 million in 2006.

"These cars and trucks aren't built in just one city of America or even in one part of the country. Japanese cars and trucks are coming from all over the place, and part facilities and development centers are everywhere, too," said William Duncan, general director, U.S.A., for the Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association. "And these are products built with high levels of American parts content, even if the plants are owned by a Japanese brand."

I'd like a Holden.

[Dust]

If you try this, I would suggest that you check your oil for polymerization. A guy at biodiesel.infopop tried it in his wife's freestar and had some partially solidified engine oil come out after 3000 miles. When the engine is cold, the unburned biodiesel gets past the rings and into the oil.

[JanGeo]

Originally Posted by ZugyNA

PIB = polyisobutylene

http://www.google.com/patents?id=IDQ...BAJ&dq=5906665

PIB is in Torco GP7 and the synthetic lubricant in it also helps lubricate the fuel system and upper cylinders - only 2.5 - 3cc is needed per 10 gallons of fuel and the PIB is supposed to help the fuel burn better.

[gerharddvs]

Hi, I was looking into bio-fuels and I came across this form.
I wanting to to use a substitute for 2-stroke oil in the little 200cc 2-stroke bike I drive to work every day because 2-stroke oil is becoming very expensive around here plus I can cut on pollution. A common vegetable oil around here that is very cheap is sunflower oil. Has anyone tried this and will it cause damage?
I'm actually very interested in Rylands experiment and what the outcome was?

I'm going to try and mix 50% (new) sunflower oil and 50% 2-stroke oil just to test and see what happens

[RoadWarrior]

Originally Posted by Dust

If you try this, I would suggest that you check your oil for polymerization. A guy at biodiesel.infopop tried it in his wife's freestar and had some partially solidified engine oil come out after 3000 miles. When the engine is cold, the unburned biodiesel gets past the rings and into the oil.

I suspect that this was actually using vegetable oil (SVO) or waste vegetable oil (WVO) due to a high content of waxes, starches, iodine compounds, acidic esters, etc etc etc... don't use plain veggie oil.. use fully converted B100, it's not the same.

[ZugyNA]

Originally Posted by gerharddvs

I'm going to try and mix 50% (new) sunflower oil and 50% 2-stroke oil just to test and see what happens

Might find some 2 stroke oil online or use some low ash synth motor oil? I used to use cheap motor oil in a 2 stroke long ago and it eventually gaulded the piston due to friction.

[gerharddvs]

I've tried normal oil but it carbons up the spark plug. The vegetable oil seems like a very interesting idea.
In reply to RoadWarrior... Keep in mind that the oil will be ,mixing with the gas so most of those starches and waxes etc will be resolved in the gas and probably get burned up with the gas. This might even help in lubricating the bearings and stuff in the engine (in 2-stroke engines the gas mixture lubricates the engine)

[ZugyNA]

Will eventually be testing 24 oz cheap canola oil per 10 G along with 2-3 oz acetone or isopropyl. Some have reported gains.

In theory the canola might increase fuel viscosity/lube/higher BTUs and the acetone or iso might increase burn rate and reduce viscosity?

Have tested 91% iso at 4-5 oz per 10 G and I got a noticable power gain, but no mpg gain...but you need to use a top lube...canola might perform double duty...top oil and burnable for power?

Tested canola at 8 oz/ 10G and saw no gain. 4 stroke car engine.

[gerharddvs]

Keep in mind guys that I'm a electronic Engineer so what I know about chemistry is fairly dangerous though I have a good understanding of how engines work how to fix them.

B100 is the biodiesel? Can you use this as a lubricant or is it just a fuel? It looks like a very complicated process to brew. Doesn't help if it costs more then the original oil.

I was thinking about just filtering out some old vegetable oil from a food place and mixing that with the gas

[Ryland]

I have not done any personal testing with used veggie oil mixed with gasoline, but from what I've seen, used oil tends to be thicker and more likely to have wax-like globs in it, and of course it can vary greatly depending on the quality of the used oil, and where it came from to start with.
bio-diesel is supposed to be a great lubricant, and it should have the part of it that could give you problems already removed, new oil should work as well, but I would keep a really close eye on it.
For my chainsaw I run the amsoil 100:1 premix gas, it's a low smoke 2 stroke oil, and even with veggie oil I would be temped to still run that same oil at a 200:1 mix, or even a 300:1 mix, as it's going to hold up under more extreme pressure, but you could simply add that to your stash of veggie oil to give you a cocktail that you ad a shot of to your fuel.

Regardless, I would take each of the oils you want to use, and currently use, and mix them with gas, putting them in clear glass jars with good fitting lids, and let them sit for a few days, first without much mixing, then mix then and see if they separate, and also try putting them in a cold place for a few days and see if that has any weird affect on them.

[gerharddvs]

What should I be looking for with the jar test?
How will I know if something is wrong?

I read in another thread that it's not a good idea to use used veg oil cause it contains a lot of salt that could destroy your engine (they were talking about diesel engines)

I see canola is cheaper then sunflower they should both have the same viscosity?

I'm going to try putting a cup of new sunflower or canola on a tank of gas(8.5litres) still using two stoke aswell and see how it runs...

[Dust]

Originally Posted by RoadWarrior

I suspect that this was actually using vegetable oil (SVO) or waste vegetable oil (WVO) due to a high content of waxes, starches, iodine compounds, acidic esters, etc etc etc... don't use plain veggie oil.. use fully converted B100, it's not the same.

Mixing veg based oils and petro based oils is not a good idea. Mineral oils tend to be polymerized by veg oils. Here's what happened to me:
Let me relate my story to you. My wife drives a 1998 Pontiac Montana minivan. 3.4L gasoline engine. I of course drive a Suburban TD. I make my Biodiesel from very lightly used soybean oil, and wash well. Last year my wifes van developed a misfire. After a short diagnostic procedure, I determined it to be a clogged fuel injector. (one must disassemble half of the engine to remove the fuel rail and injectors) The dealership has a method of hooking up a small pressurized vessel filled with injector cleaner and a small amount of gasoline. The fuse to the electric fuel pump is removed and this small tank is hooked to the fuel rail. The engine is then run until this small vessel is empty. Voila! Clean injectors. For the nominal fee of 250 dollars! Now I am aware of Biodiesels excellent solvent capabilities, so I wondered if it would do a good job of cleaning the injectors. I filled the tank with a 10% blend of BD and gasoline. Within 50 miles, the mis-fire went away and the service engine soon light went out. I ran two tankfuls of this 10% blend in the van. I thought WOW this is great! I can cut her gasoline usage and keep everything clean and running great as well. My balloon was quickly deflated soon after these two tankfuls. The soy bean derived BD polymerised the engine oil. A couple of close spaced oil changes cured that, but I have not experimented again with BD in an SI engine. Now I realize there are several factors that could be the culprit. Mineral oil in the van (I use Mobil 1 synthetic in my 'Burb), A fouled injector causes fuel dilution of the crankcase oil (perhaps a good running engine would not have experienced the polymerization), or maybe BD made from a different plant oil would not cause the polymerization. I don't know, I have not carried out further experiments on it. The van ran very well on the 10% blend BTW. Just a heads up about something to be aware of with veg oil or BD in an SI engine.(the polymerization). end post.

So, the mineral oil in the enigine polymerized within two tankfuls of a 10% blend. It did do a marvelous job of cleaning the fouled injector. Yes, this gasser is fuel injected not carbureted. Perhaps synthetic oil would not have polymerized.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/foru...51/m/408105326